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Sandy
USA
6040 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 26 2010 : 21:03:01
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For those who are not amongst all those here who would not tow a fellow boater in need. May all your good deeds repay you this nicely:
http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100726/NEWS/7260318/-1/NEWS01
Edit 1st sentence due to liability concerns  to: For all those who are not amongst the very few here who might, for instance, automatically latch onto liability concerns to avoid or minimize involvement in samaritan boater aid. |
Sandy |
Edited by - Sandy on Jul 29 2010 12:37:37 |
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Veebyes
Bermuda
2443 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 09:09:27
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Good story. Don't understand why they broke the towline multiple times other than maybe trying to tow too fast. you just never know when 'your turn' will come, & it will. That is why I have always gone to the assistance, if in the position to help, especially if offshore.
Here in Bermuda, the local version of your CG is not in the habit of assisting non life threatening situations. 'My turn' came one glass calm day & I had a breakdown, fuel starvation, a few miles offshore. I called our Island harbourmaster, who deals with all things marine, & explained my situation. His response. "Ah Minnow, it is about time you had a turn. What can I do for you?" In no time at all a Marine Police RIB was out to me, took my passengers off & back to shore, then returned to tow me to shore. Not to closest point either. "Where would you like to go?" During the tow to shore I got my mechanic on the phone who talked me through the repriming process & I got the engine relit & dropped the tow.
Had I been one of those who never offers assistance I would have been in for a very expensive & time consuming towing job.
To those who don't want to get involved, think again. Your turn will someday come. Always help if you are ina position to do so. |
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camman73
USA
353 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 10:52:16
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| Great story. Sounds like that boat would have been in some deep stuff if he had been dead in the water when that storm came through. |
Keith
Lombard, IL |
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Perry
USA
865 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 13:55:09
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I just did a short tow dragging a go fast back to a fuel dock. For those that know and understand the Shinnecock Canal, there's a current that rips through there on outgoing water. Had to tow them up current to the dock, 3/4 filled with boats waiting for fuel and I was able to slip the boat in without any issue. When we released their boat they never even acknowledged us to say thanks or nothing. My buddy wanted to give them a piece of his mind and I just said it didn't matter to me. I didn't do it for them, I did it for me.
Funny thing, later in the day I saw them outside my marina hanging onto the canal wall stuck again. I was not going to tow them through the locks. For that, I would leave to the professionals. |
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Flutterby
USA
13150 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 14:25:50
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Perry, some folks just never "get it".
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A hole in the water I no longer throw money into! |
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Perry
USA
865 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 14:34:14
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| and that's where I left him...sitting there holding onto the canal wall... |
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TarHeeLBoater
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 09:07:26
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I towed a pontoon boat in on Sunday with my 20 foot ski boat. I was tempted to see how fast a pontoon boat could go but common sense prefailed LOL.
I have been towed and I do the same as long as it can be done safely. I was in trouble once and flagged down a nice new shiny boat and they refused to tow me. Ended up in a very scarey predicament. We could not catch anchor and ended up drifting in with the tied, to a bunch of ships ( The Idol fleet). I ended up tieing off to one of the Anchor lines on a ship. That was the only thing keeping me and my family from being sucked under the ships. A first class rescue and tow from the coast guard and we were safe.
After that I will always lend a hand, heck even before that but even more so now.
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the grass is always greener on the ceptic tank |
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danielcooper9
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 10:08:58
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| I was buttoning up the canvas on the 4th of July after a long day of boating. We were trying to hurry so we could drive home for fireworks. Then a guy a couple of slips down from me came up and asked if I would be willing to go tow is boat in. He was a little ways outside of the marina when his engine died and he said all tow agencies were telling him it would take a couple hours to get to him. I hesitated for a moment before agreeing just because my family wanted to see firworks and we also had guests with us that were looking forward to it. Anyway, I went out and helped him in. But my real question is this, the guy asked if I would tow him to his slip. I was hesitant to do this for a couple of reasons. There was a pretty good breeze and the fairway isn't overly wide. I told him I wasn't comfortable with how I would be able to manuever him into his slip. I just imagined getting into other boats. The water was 6 ft at that point so walking it in wouldn't work. Anyway, I ended up pulling him to the gas pump which was open to the water. Has anyone somehow maneuvered a disable boat into a slip like that with your boat? I just couldn't figure out how I would accomplish that. |
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Perry
USA
865 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 12:54:22
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| Hip tow...tie the towed boat to your beam and bring them close to the slip and then untie and let them pull them selves in. |
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danielcooper9
187 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2010 : 13:57:37
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| I thought about that but i wasn't sure how much that would affect how my boat handles. Does it dramatically affect how the boat turns (single engine duo-prop in my case)? I'll have to try it sometime in open water just out of curiousity but I didn't want to experiment with boats much more expensive than mine around. By the way, my boat is 26' and his was about a 30' |
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Perry
USA
865 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 07:48:38
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| Yup, can be done with a smaller boat. The boat will obviously be pulling to the side the towed boat is on and be much slower to react. |
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In the know
5695 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 07:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by danielcooper9
I thought about that but i wasn't sure how much that would affect how my boat handles. Does it dramatically affect how the boat turns (single engine duo-prop in my case)? I'll have to try it sometime in open water just out of curiousity but I didn't want to experiment with boats much more expensive than mine around. By the way, my boat is 26' and his was about a 30'
Be sure that the boat you have "on the hip" is fore of your turning pivot point. |
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2% of people will fight for the freedoms endured by 100%
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Bill D.
USA
10877 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 08:38:45
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The OP said this, "For those who are not amongst all those here who would not tow a fellow boater in need." I've thought about that statement a lot since this thread started. It seems to imply that a large number of RO's will absolutely not tow anyone. Having been around here a very long time I do not believe that to be the case. It's MHO, that what RO's say is that they make informed decisions based on vessels involved, skill, sea conditions, and general safety. To me that makes perfect sense. So, I ask this question, "Is there anyone who would NEVER tow another boater."
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"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it." Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956)
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Edited by - Bill D. on Jul 29 2010 11:19:50 |
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TarHeeLBoater
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 10:51:06
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[quote]Originally posted by Perry
Hip tow...tie the towed boat to your beam and bring them close to the slip and then untie and let them pull them selves in.
[/quote
That is how the Coast guard did with me after a slow tow, they tied up along side and put me at the dock I was happy. They did check all my safety gear and told me I was very lucky as other boats had been sucked under those idol ships during incoming tides in the past!] |
the grass is always greener on the ceptic tank |
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Bill D.
USA
10877 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 12:53:38
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Now Sandy, I wasn't picking on you... <G>
Anyway, since nobody repied that they would NEVER tow, I guess we can put that myth to rest.
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"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it." Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956)
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Sandy
USA
6040 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 13:16:21
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Bill- I took it in good spirit and agree with you. However , I wish you'd stop pointing that pistol at me. [D)]
I suspect there are some who opted to embrace their Constitutional rights in respect to your question. Somewhat similar to asking who would EVER spank a puppy. Heh. |
Sandy |
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L. Keith
USA
1672 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 14:14:02
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| I'm sure this will get this site rilled up. This web site was originally created by the marketing director for a private towing/assist company. For a long time the mantra on this site was "Do not attempt a private tow, you will be sued, do not tow your neighbor, leave it to the professionals". I remember many a post that related to the topic of towing/salvage. I am glad this attitude has changed and the mariners on this forum recognize the need to assist one another. |
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Radioactive
USA
9956 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 15:28:38
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I tow, have been towed, and there is also a time to let the pros handle it. I would not, ever, to the best my ( and my vessel's ) ability, leave a distressed vessel without assistance.
I would always like to offer a tow, but it is very important to know when you simply do not have the skills, manpower, equipment to do the job effectively and safely.
Know your limits, and offer that which you can provide. Sometimes, the best course might be to offer a spare anchor rig, then give the distressed crew a lift to shore leaving the tow for later by someone better equipped. Or simply standing on station, ready to provide what you can, waiting while other, better equipped, assistance arrives. A tow is not the only cure. Each situation is unique and the proper response might be one of a variety of things, only one of which is a tow.
Use your head, he safe, and yes, DO render assistance. |
Bill
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Bonzai
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame |
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Bill D.
USA
10877 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 15:38:43
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| Heck Sandy, that pistol was "assigned" to me by a GTBC. I've just kept it pointed as awarded... |
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it." Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956)
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November Charlie
USA
5432 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 15:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Radioactive
I tow, have been towed, and there is also a time to let the pros handle it. I would not, ever, to the best my ( and my vessel's ) ability, leave a distressed vessel without assistance.
I would always like to offer a tow, but it is very important to know when you simply do not have the skills, manpower, equipment to do the job effectively and safely.
Know your limits, and offer that which you can provide. Sometimes, the best course might be to offer a spare anchor rig, then give the distressed crew a lift to shore leaving the tow for later by someone better equipped. Or simply standing on station, ready to provide what you can, waiting while other, better equipped, assistance arrives. A tow is not the only cure. Each situation is unique and the proper response might be one of a variety of things, only one of which is a tow.
Use your head, he safe, and yes, DO render assistance.
Well said. |
-Mike
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In the know
5695 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 15:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by L. Keith
I'm sure this will get this site rilled up. This web site was originally created by the marketing director for a private towing/assist company. For a long time the mantra on this site was "Do not attempt a private tow, you will be sued, do not tow your neighbor, leave it to the professionals". I remember many a post that related to the topic of towing/salvage. I am glad this attitude has changed and the mariners on this forum recognize the need to assist one another.
Well you have been here longer than me, but I don't recall seeing that attitude as the "norm" here, but just the excpetion by a few from time to time.
I follwo the "do unto others rule.." If I can offer asistance, I will, I guess it is just how I was raised.
However, no way was I going to try and tow the 65' Hatteras that broke down on the bay last week! |
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2% of people will fight for the freedoms endured by 100%
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Paul Isaac
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 15:57:29
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| It is all about Karma. |
Paul |
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Sandy
USA
6040 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 16:03:05
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Point taken,Bill. I'll tow(sic) the line since you have me over a barrel. Be careful though , if that used to be the GTBC's it likely has a hair-trigger. The last guy he gave that to ended up with a self-imposed hole in his engine & luckily was towed in by a friendly RO.  |
Sandy |
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Bill D.
USA
10877 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 16:08:38
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I've been here a long time and believe I remember the threads LK is talking about. IMO, that was not the "mantra", but that they were far more educational in nature. Many misconceptions about towing, salvage, what the CG will do, rendering assistance, how to tow, state regs, and other boating issue were tackled. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that they were some of the best threads we have ever had.
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"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it." Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956)
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Bill D.
USA
10877 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 16:24:04
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Aw Sandy, I'm harmless.....btw, would you look down the barrel and tell me if it's clear, wait till I get the hammer back. <G> BTW, that GTBC would always let you know ahead of time that things were getting dangerous. Watchout if he ever started a reply with, "Well PILGRIM.....", though.
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"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false face for the urge to rule it." Henry Louis Mencken (1880 - 1956)
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Sandy
USA
6040 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2010 : 23:58:48
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Noooo thanks. Having had a loaded 32 semi-auto aimed directly at my head from a foot away by an absolutely insanely-wild drunk and the trigger pulled , once is plenty enough. (Fortunately, though full clip, too crazed to put a round in the chamber, according to the police later.)
Here's another report of the same tow adventure: http://www.mvtimes.com/marthas-vineyard/article.php?id=1861
I don't recall ever hearing or reading of a non-comm samaritan tower ever being sued for his/her well-intentioned requested efforts (no matter whose line it was.) Anyone else know of such a case and what the outcome was? |
Sandy |
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Radioactive
USA
9956 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2010 : 00:17:51
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"non-comm samaritan tower ever being sued" -- Sandy
Any one can sue anyone, esp. if you find an "inattentive judge" to hear the case. But successfully? No, I have not heard of one. No doubt about it, just as with any activity in public, there is some risk involved. The degree of risk is, however, debatable.
But I seriously doubt that any sincere, "good Samaritan action" would produce a wildly adverse legal response.
That said, be aware that there is a risk ( of poorly defined magnitude ) with any "good Samaritan activity". The best recourse is to "not do anything stupid". A "reasonable attempt" to render assistance, via "reasonable methods" is unlikely to produce an adverse legal result.
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I am no lawyer. My advice is worth what you paid me for it: nothing. If it really bothers you, retain a lawyer and ask them. |
Bill
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Bonzai
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame |
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Sandy
USA
6040 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2010 : 12:58:54
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| No , it doesn't bother me , though I have usually made a point of courteously asking folks I occasionally get asked to tow if they are willing to assume all risk & liability, and on questionable tows have radioed the coasties about the other vessel's situation and that vessel's operator confirming assumption of risk for the samaritan tow. If a family member calls the USCG abiut the overdue boat they would be able to get update & some reassurance. |
Sandy |
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mariner36
107 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 11:49:11
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I think that responding via VHF, contacting the USCG and/or offering to contact boatus or another tow service is reasonable assistance in lieu of actually attempting the tow itself.
Does this seem reasonable, or should more be done if the vessel and its crew are not in obvious and imminent danger? |
1985 Carver Mariner 36 |
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Sandy
USA
6040 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 12:15:41
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| I'd say it depends a bit upon what you are comfortable with and what you would wish the other person to do to help if you were in his/her situation. |
Sandy |
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TarHeeLBoater
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 16:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by mariner36
I think that responding via VHF, contacting the USCG and/or offering to contact boatus or another tow service is reasonable assistance in lieu of actually attempting the tow itself.
Does this seem reasonable, or should more be done if the vessel and its crew are not in obvious and imminent danger?
If you were broke down would you rather wait for a few hours or be towed in. I have been broken down and been pulled in. I would prefer the help if offered. just saying
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the grass is always greener on the ceptic tank |
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Radioactive
USA
9956 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 16:48:40
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"I think that responding via VHF, contacting the USCG and/or offering to contact boatus or another tow service is reasonable assistance in lieu of actually attempting the tow itself." -- mariner36
In some cases, that might be the right response, though, it would be unlikely for me to leave the scene ( once things start to go downhill, they tend to continue in that direction ). If all you are doing is "the minimum required" so that you can get home to watch "the news", then you can expect that all who hear of it will recognize this.
Note that, if the disabled vessel is unable to make contact to get assistance, then they may have difficulty getting the assistance all the way to their boat if you leave. You may be needed to "talk in" the tow boat and act as a radio communication link.
Again, each case is unique, and each will require a slightly different approach. But, Imho, just doing a "close fly by", calling the tow, then leaving, would usually be insufficient. |
Bill
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Bonzai
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame |
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way577
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 16:54:46
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I'll always help someone that broke-down !!!.
Heres a 2 for 1 tow. [:-captain]
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Radioactive
USA
9956 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 17:02:59
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| With the photo posted by way577 in mind, note that the distressed vessel may refuse assistance, if the assistance offered seems to be "poorly advised". |
Bill
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Bonzai
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame |
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way577
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 17:21:21
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quote:
if the assistance offered seems to be "poorly advised".
Why do you say that ??.
Both boat made it back to my marina with no problems going 5mph.
Its not my fault that SOME people DON'T know how to tow a boat. |
Edited by - way577 on Aug 05 2010 17:22:19 |
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Radioactive
USA
9956 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 18:01:31
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way, I freely admit that I am not a trained tow captain, and that my towing skills are limited. With that in mind, the situation in the photo looks to me to be risky. It appears that the towed vessels are too close to the tow vessel, one has an undersized tow line and in the event you need to maneuver, it appears that you have little control over either. That you made it safely is fortunate.
Imho. |
Bill
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Bonzai
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame |
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way577
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 18:30:43
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Bill, That pic was taken with a CHEAP phone camera which doesn't do it justice !!.
Those boat were further away than it looks. .  |
Edited by - way577 on Aug 05 2010 18:31:27 |
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Ghost
USA
5421 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 18:35:02
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The suggestion that a large numer of people here don't care about others is rather misplaced. Personally I've towed 3 different folks in over the years. One about two hours, another the familiar story of not a workd of thanks followed by finding them stranded again later (I don't do second chances). Anyhow, I guess I personify the typical fellow here that does not care about anyone else and rarely recommends towing to others.
Having some idea of the principles involved, I don't recommend it most of the time. Most of the people I see on the water don't have a clue and they are the ones that will get you in trouble yourself and hurt. Don't expect a thank you either. The notion to always help another fellow, no thinking whatever has just a taint of redneck "hold my beer and watch this" written all over it. No idea. No Brain. No worry. Lives I will always help and have been there. I've seen the success and I've seen the failure. Property is either insured, or should have been.
Of course, the very worst attempted tows I've ever seen in my life came from the local district 13 CG auxiliary which never fails to impress me by their unqualified and dangerous antics, but that's another diatribe.
Lets put it this way. You can do a lot of damage and put people in a lot of danger with the typical brainless redneck towing techniques. Quite a few boats have cleats that are screwed, not bolted and the wrong techniques and materials will let go on you. Am I the only one who has any recall of people getting hit by cleats over the years? It think the cleat to skull headcount is only slightly behind that of the honda generators and that's just one way to get in trouble in a tow. If you want to help someone, start by not putting them in additional danger. If you can save the property with near zero risk, then great, but that's not what we are talking about here. In fact, you have a duty to the folks on your vessel and others in danger that must be satisfied before ever adding property risk. Good samaritan goes out the window both legally and morally when you could have saved all the people, but chose not to for the pathetic attempt at saving insured property instead.
Here's a guy that breaks a one half inch anchor rode at least TWO times. You have two boats, both skippered by guys who have a history of getting themselves in trouble far offshore. It takes about five thousand pounds to break a line like that and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts they have a picture somewhere of them smiling while standing directly behind the line/cleat holding them. Did they actually leave people on the disabled vessel when they were in the middle of a severe thunder storm? With a towline that had parted twice already? You think this was a good idea? You want to recommend more of the same? Your kidding me right?
This site has always been about boating safety. A point which has been lost on those who are minlessly recommending towing essentially all the time, without any discussion whatsoever on how to identify good/bad situations and devoid of any discussion on how to do a tow safely.
It always amazes me how some just miss the point of any discussion and want to fallback on strawman arguments such as "we don't recommend towing because the guy running the website has a towing company". Really? Apparently you selectively igored the tons of threads where the guy running a tow company who recommends never helping anyone out actually added tons of valuable information on how to do a tow safely. I don't remember the same coming from the peanut gallery.
There is a right way and a right time for towing. I would not be inclined to award the idiots in the attached story for a medal quite so quickly. I'd also think Les deserves more than a little credit and an apology on this one. |
What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand? |
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speedo
1463 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 20:02:18
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Way577 I commend you for being a double Good Sam. I don’t know that I would have tried towing two boats.
In the spirit of education, I’d like to make some comments on what I see and see if Ghost or other people who actually know what they’re doing have to say. The things I’m about to point out and ask about aren’t meant as a slam on you. (I’m in no position to slam you because I have no idea what I’m about to ask about!) You accomplished a very good deed and I don’t want to detract from that. I’d like to be safe and smart when I lend a hand and perhaps more important know when I’m over my head.
That said, here are some observations and questions for the knowledgeable.
Both boats do look close from the perspective of your cheap camera. What’s a proper length for what appears to be a calm day on inland water?
The first boat is riding on a good sized wake from your boat which suggests to me you might have been going more than 5 mph. What’s the “safe speed”? Related, it looks inefficient mpg-wise, what’s ideal “hull speed” when towing?
Would the wake issue be ameliorated with a longer tow line?
I would have hooked up to the bow hook on the first boat. Most likely to have good backing. (Trailering conditions could compromise it though, I would think.) Deck cleat is more likely to be less stoutly mounted. (Hmm, bow hook is less mass in case of slingshot, too!) Lower tow point would be more hydrodynamic, too, wouldn’t it?
It appears there’s a person in the first boat, too, and I wouldn’t allow that. Enough responsibility trying to keep property safe, I don’t need the added burden of a person to worry about, too. Is that paranoid, or is it OK for passengers to remain in the towed vessel?
Pontoon boat deck cleat requires inspection. The front decks can be well made or a poorly maintained POS. If it’s OK, you really don’t have any other options, do you?
The pontoon boat is tracking into the wake of the first boat and it looks like it’s too close to the first boat. What’s the proper setup for towing a second boat? Another hull speed/efficiency question.
I towed a pontoon patio boat once and had the owner pull lower unit out of the water so it wouldn’t try to steer the tow. Is that right?
Unrelated to this picture, when towing a single boat is there an advantage to using a bridle instead of just hooking up to one side or the other of the tow boat?
Ghost, others? Want to share some knowledge?
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Speedo
Chico, CA
1978 SRV 240 Sedanbridge
"Albert Again"
Home "Port" Lake Oroville, CA |
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way577
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 20:09:48
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I can't read your reply because of all of these � !!
What the heck are they ?? |
Edited by - way577 on Aug 05 2010 20:10:53 |
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L. Keith
USA
1672 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 20:12:00
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| Hey Ghost, three folks over the years? Do you tow with poly-pro or IWRC 6X36 or 6X26? IPS? Ever pull from a braided nylon bridle slung from the deck, encompassing the hull along the shear line? Pull with soft line from deck fittings? That sounds like something the red or yellow outboard powered assist boats do everyday. What's the documented Bollard pull of the colored outboard assist boats anyway? Can they handle the weight of what they hook up to? Skill only takes you so far. Store bought towing endorsements don't take you very far at all. How does being the former marketing director for a private towing assist company equal "the guy running the website has a towing company". The only real use for 1/2" nylon line is to lash down the ice chest to keep the beer from getting shaken up. Remember, it was the "Rednecks" and "Coonasses" from the Gulf South that taught the world what Marine Towing was all about. You are a West coast boater, ask the boys at Sause Brothers who showed them how to do it. I repeat, I am glad the mariners on this forum recognize the need to assist one another. |
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November Charlie
USA
5432 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 20:31:20
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"Skill only takes you so far. Store bought towing endorsements don't take you very far at all."
I think we're on the same page! |
-Mike
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speedo
1463 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 20:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by way577
I can't read your reply because of all of these � !!
What the heck are they ??
It appears fine to me. I'll send you a pm with my post.
Looks like we're in the middle of a pissing contest,though, so my questions may not be answered.
edited to add check you email. What I cut and pasted here may still have funky format. |
Speedo
Chico, CA
1978 SRV 240 Sedanbridge
"Albert Again"
Home "Port" Lake Oroville, CA |
Edited by - speedo on Aug 05 2010 20:40:15 |
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November Charlie
USA
5432 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2010 : 21:26:50
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Speedo, I'll take a shot at it.
Towline length is a very variable factor - weather, hull type and displacement of towed vessel, desired maneuverability vs. necessary maneuverability vs. acceptable maneuverability (which itself is a factor of waterway, traffic, proximity of hazards, available space to take the tow up alongside when it comes time to, availability of plan B, C, and D). The tow needs to be kept in step, and it's much easier to let out line to accomplish that than to take in line - taking in requires going back into transition and breaking the bitt. But, as for at-a-glance determination? There should be enough line and not enough speed that the strain on the towline is light enough to maintain a proper catenary in the line. Catenary is the 'dip' in the line caused by the wet towline's own weight, and works as an inherent shock absorber. A towline leading in a straight line from bitt-to-bitt is bad, bad business. LOT of kinetic energy there to pop a cleat or bitt, part a line, or run your tow right up your backside if you have to bring her down for any reason. As to 'proper length for xxx conditions'? Whatever leaves a good catenary and leaves an acceptable maneuverability factor. Too short creates too many hazards to list. Too long you lose a lot of short-notice maneuverability in tight areas, and the tow will fall off before you get a tow strap on when you bring it up alongside.
Safe speed is a function of a lot of things -some hard and fast factors, some more discretionary and situational. As for the hard numbers, that's easy - hull speed. Boats should not be towed beyond their hull speed - even planing hulls. Baseline safe towing speed is often determined by a formula of 1.34 x square root of length at waterline, minus a 10% 'safety factor'. That gives you a starting point if you want to look at numbers. Safe towing speed and towline length are closely related. Planing hulls should not plane in tow. Displacement hulls SHOULD NOT plane when towing, but very easily will. Sailboats will plane right out on their hullside like they were meant to. VERY dangerous situation. Planing hull or displacement hull planes under tow, can easily yaw off and trip you. Dynamically unstable, as well.
As far as towing from the trailer eye bolt, the short answer is yes. Planing hulls tow MUCH better from the trailer eye, and it is almost always, as you mentioned, the strongest deck iron on the boat. You can usually coax an extra knot or two or sometimes three when towing from the bow eye vs. towing from the main deck. Problem is you need to get up close to hook in. Occasionally the bow eye is the only real option to hook up to - you want to see some real finesse in boathandling, you should see someone hook up a tow with a kicker hook to a bow eye in snotty weather. In 11 years, I can count on one hand the number of times I've been stuck with the skiff hook being the only option in nasty weather, but every time would be at the top of the list for most difficult, delicate, moments as far as boathandling goes. When deck cleats are questionable, sometimes a bridle can be used to spread the load. Sometimes, there's NO question that the cleats are unsuitable, and the trailer eye is the only option (done that one in the surf - learned how long I can go without breathing). Sometimes, especially on sailboats, you end up having to tow from the mast and rigging lizards to keep the lead. Sometimes on those 'super cool' boats you end up having to bridle the hull.
As far as where to tow from - yes, there are plenty of advantages in having the strain on centerline. A bridle between the two transom eyes (on a trailerable boat so equipped) spreads the strain between two of the three strongest fittings on the boat, and keeps the strain on centerline. Off center strain can trip the boat, much easier than most people think.
L. Keith, lately I've been falling for purple Plasma 12-by for bridles and pendants. Lighter than any nylon, stronger, hardly chafes, but doesn't have any elasticity, either. Don't get that rubber band bounce that DBN gives when I bring smaller tows up alongside, or slinging them around when I have them alongside. I bend it to the 3.25" DBN towline with a Ny-Lite shackle, and it still floats and doesn't bounce at all. The kind of towing I do, the double braid nylon is best for the main towline, but these new HPDE lines like the Plasma and such have me convinced for bridles and pendants and alongside work. |
-Mike
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speedo
1463 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 00:32:47
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Thanks, Mike. That's helpful. For my conditions, inland lake, I think I've been reasonably safe. The definition of cantenary, and its value is particularly helpful and important when considering all the other variables. If the line's too taught, you're probably not at hull speed, or your tow's askew, but either way there's a LOT more kinetic energy lurking in your tow line, bow hook, deck cleat or whatever.
What about the idea of the tow vessel lifting its outdrive? Does that keep the boat from yawing because of the effective rudder in the water, or would the outdrive add stability if it were tied off in a neutral position. Without the outdrive in, the boat seems to wander a bit, but still rides efficiently.
What about passengers in the towed vessel? Leave 'em on their boat or bring them onto yours.
Last time I towed a boat to the gas dock I put the passengers back in their boat and instructed the owner that I was going to make a pass by the gas dock but he would need to steer his boat to get alongside it. (Thankfully the dock was relatively empty.) He didn't execute that maneuver as planned but we got him there anyway. I didn't know about a hip tow at the time, but I guess that would have been the time to reel him in and reattach him to my side?
I know boats, water, conditions etc. are all variables, but the way you've explained things give me a better idea of what I should do in my usual conditions. Thank you!
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Speedo
Chico, CA
1978 SRV 240 Sedanbridge
"Albert Again"
Home "Port" Lake Oroville, CA |
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Ghost
USA
5421 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 01:13:57
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I still don't get it. Your the first to stand in line and point out that there is a lot more to towing than meets the eye, but also the first to suggest any tom dick or harry should do it.
What gives? |
What part of GALE WARNING did you not understand? |
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Veebyes
Bermuda
2443 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 07:24:29
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November Charlie, that is an awful lot of technical gobbledygook just to say what should be fairly obvious to most boaters, DON'T TOW BEYOND HULL SPEED. Too much stress on hardware never mind a waste of gas for little gain in time.
People put an awful lot of faith in that bow ring. Wonder how many have taken the trouble to see just how weak many are. I wonder how many have actually any idea how difficult it is to access that area to repair? The bow ring is there to primarily secure the boat to a trailer, not drag its dead weight up onto a trailer or, worse, try to tow it half on/off the plane where forces are terrific.
NC, you are dead right. TOW SLOW. What you gonna do if you pull the bow ring out of the towee. Now you have a boat with a hole in it & cleats that are strong enough for use in a protected marina at best. It it is a trailer boat you just KNOW it won't have a mooring bit. So, to the macho guy towing with all the horsepower, what are you going to do next? Abandon the disabled boat? |
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TarHeeLBoater
USA
641 Posts |
Posted - Aug 06 2010 : 14:55:58
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This is a great popcorn eating post.
Should any Tom Dick or Harry tow a boat? no..........Heck there are people driveing cars every day that shouldnt have a drivers license.
If you would tow a boat from a cleat over 5mph you shoud'nt tow a row boat
if you would tow a boat wide open with the lines jerking and ropes breaking no
If ( YOU ) can safley tow a boat is a matter of opinion but to say that only a boat towing company is qualified to tow is like saying. Only licensed people should have guns oh wait big brother already did that one LOL
This debate could go on and on........ |
the grass is always greener on the ceptic tank |
Edited by - TarHeeLBoater on Aug 06 2010 14:57:41 |
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mariner36
107 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2010 : 12:54:57
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The point about the boat in distress not having a radio is very reasonable.
In that case I would stay with them, or if in a hurry, leave them one of my portable VHF's till help arrived. I would also keep radio contact till help had arrived, or at least insure that they were in contact with the USCG when I left range.
If close to a port I can see towing someone in.
Diverting many miles and towing someone who is not in imminent danger, and who has communication with the USCG and or professional towing companies, I can not. |
1985 Carver Mariner 36 |
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Radioactive
USA
9956 Posts |
Posted - Aug 09 2010 : 13:40:05
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I think the whole issue here can be easily summarized:
"Safely provide necessary assistance."
My offering a tow is not always safe, and my providing assistance is not always necessary. But you should always ensure that the situation is "stable" and that if you are not going to provide the direct assistance, then at least the "link" to more direct assistance has been provided and ensured.
A quick simple example of when I would ignore a request for assistance: it is common < sigh > for boats to make the 12 nm run out to the local barrier islands, with no fuel. They are anchored in a "fair" location, and within sight of Park Rangers, with a way to get home ( tour boat will take them ). These folks I would ignore.
otoh: I also venture "out" ( 30" nm ) and I would always attempt to respond to a request for assistance from a vessel requesting it. I might not tow, for any number of reasons, though in some cases I might. But I would provide all the support I possibly and safely could, till "proper" assistance arrived.
Each case is unique. Almost all cases are not handled perfectly. I am not in business to provide tow service, but I will readily help a stranded boater stay safe, and assist as well as is reasonable. It is what I hope would be offered to me, if ( when ) I need to "make the call".
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Not to criticize. "Imminent danger" can get tricky to define. The immediate situation might very well look like someone simply drained their battery while at anchor. In which case, there might be no major issues, at this moment. Weather, however can completely transform this "simple, irritating" dilemma into something much more dramatic. In the process of deciding "will I make the long run" be sure to consider everything that you know about the situation. What might, at first glance, seem to be a benign, laughable incident, could, in fact, be a very serious problem if assistance is not received "shortly". So think twice about by-passing a call and continue to monitor, if possible. ( I have by-passed several ) |
Bill
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Bonzai
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." - Kenneth Grahame |
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Les Hall
USA
7135 Posts |
Posted - Aug 10 2010 : 08:00:15
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As the guy L. Keith accuses of telling folks not to tow for the benefit of the commercial towing industry, I can say without reservation that the statement is not true. Rather, as a licensed captain who was involved in the towing business, I saw first hand the dangers of ill equipped recreational boaters towing other boaters. As noted above, most boaters only have 3 strand nylon on board in a quantity long enough to facilitate a tow. That is the worst possible towing line because of its elasticity. There's a reason why small commercial towing vessels have a steel mesh cage around the helm. I have yet to see a recreational boaters with a tow post located midships to provide maneuverability. And, if towing a larger vessel, few understand the dangers of getting tripped.
All we have ever said here is that safety must come first. In most cases, the safest course of action is to render assistance with communications as necessary and arrange a professional to perform the tow. Most areas have readily available services. I have also suggested that everyone check their insurance policies because I had one that prohibited towing. If something happened while towing another vessel my policy was void.
Safety is, and always has been, the primary issue here.
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Les Hall, ATC Forum Host |
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